What it likely means is that cops and other law enforcement officers carry and handle their guns far more often than the average Joe or Jane. If you did the same with a Glock or an M&P without the thumb safeties, youd get the same result. And they would not have done that for no reason at all. First off, no joke on me. SIG says ABC had intended to include some of those other claims in their reports, but after SIG informed the network of the additional information that was uncovered, those cases werent included in either of the segments. Where is that defect now? Happy with my old S&W revolvers, 3rd Gen S&W pistols,1911s and a slew of P226s. Combine this with the complacency that comes with handling a firearm over-and-over again as you holster and unholster a firearm throughout the day, its not surprising that many of these officers are saying it just went off as a negligent discharge can cost them their job if it lead to serious injury or property damage. Bagnells and other lawsuits ABC claims at least 54 discharges and 10 suits against SIG describe instances of P320s going off dating back to 2016, prior to the upgrade. Maybe in South America a poor military did, but thatd be about it. When a consumer product is likely to be operated in such a way that it causes accidents because it is way too easy to make a serious mistake because of human error when operating it the manufactures are told that the machine must be made safer. Stupid marine, cop, citizen, its their fault. Would you? 01:10. Its not happening on your person without some catastrophic event. D. The Moron engineer who decided to put that on the Glock should have been hung by his dirty balls. Heres the version that ran Tuesday morning during the networks Good Morning America program . Neither argument is relevant or very intelligent and certainly not useful. It sure wasnt her fault though, because she was flooring the. Profits over reliability and you end up with junk. It isnt the beginner woodworker who loses fingers. . That show with no Shatner-Kirk and only a Nimoy-Spock wouldnt have gotten past the first season. If the latter were to occur, the drop safety would prevent discharge because it would not be pushed up by anything. I love when people call law enforcement officers highly trained. Most dont get more training than what they had in the academy unless they are getting paid time to train, or are going for something speciality such as S.W.A.T. Having it as the ONLY trigger pull the weapon has seems (to me) clearly dangerous. Then Weve got to go 9mm Nato. And hasnt been nothing but looking for the holy grail since. Theyre just on a 30 year nap hoping what they did will carry them forever. But Shatner? brakes, remember? ), and the gun fell out of his pocket. No the devil went down to Georgia to learn how to play a fiddle. So if, say, a person was to accidentally get shot through no fault of their own and need to sue, which specific cartridge/appendage combo would yield the most favorable least pain/permanent-damage : highest-payout ratio? The bullet struck a soldier in the leg. -You plan on getting rid of your P320, great! He had to be reprimanded by the range officer twice for unsafe handling of his pistol. And on the flip side of the coin is the decades of denial by Remington on the 700 which Ive seen firsthand. To make the striker leg pull off of the sear, you would have to impart a lot of rearward momentum and stop it suddenly. You would have to conclude theres a problem with the product, not with the people., In the Nightline version, Bagnell says, Firearms are not subject to federal regulation. I bought a P320 and went through the voluntary upgrade. The federal government intends to order up to 20,000 pistols for the military to replace its Second World War-era Browning Hi-Power handguns in a project that could be worth up to $50 million. I didnt even touch it! Canadas highly-trained counterterrorism force, JTF-2, is the only military unit with the SIG P320 in its inventory right now. Excellent work. Using an example from the first prong, we legitimately fault the user who shot himself in the palm, rightfully asking why in the WORLD his palm was in front of the muzzle when he set the gun down. My bet would be that someone had a fully loaded gun in a gym bag and a cloth or rag snagged the trigger. Its also beyond debate that current production Sig quality is drastically inferior to what it once was, particularly the German made pieces. That took a lot. Really, that JJA ship looks like something the folks at PlaySkool built, its terrible. None of the current lawsuits appear to be in any way related to the now-fixed drop safety issue and most, if not all of the allegations seem to involve upgraded pistols or those produced after the drop safety problem was identified by SIG. They admitted their problem and fixed it. At least the Gorilla is still evolving while the Far Right proved to be an evolutionary dead end, one of natures mistakes. Look a fanboy. TTAG talked to Bagnell, who told us that he wants it to be known that he is not anti-gun and doesnt want to see more gun control laws in this country. Cars have so many electronics these days, who knows what could have gone wrong! He is acting as a consultant in the Collette suit that was filed last week. He wanted to see how accurate the gun was, especially after the customer got it back after the voluntary upgrade. It SHOULD have more engagement width wise, but often doesnt due to things being rounded or out of square. Its hard to say yet but with anything follow the basic safety rules. One, the energy necessary to lift the striker-securing safety plunger may be insufficient due to a too-weak spring, or a too-light plunger, or some other design flaw, to reliably engage the plunger where it belongs. Glock is being sued too, because once loaded and a round is chambered, it also has a much lighter trigger than a DA/SA. Yes, its reliable, but no more so than most other major brands well known models. The P320 pistol is a dog. Wheee!!. Aug 25, 2021 pluong91 said: Hello all users that plan on making a P320 Accidental Discharge Threads -We love our P320's and have done the research when these articles and lawsuits came out, we don't need you to tell us, we have done our due diligence. It provides another example of how the gun free zone purportedly keeps people safe by not only keeping guns away, but by requiring more discharges nearby. The linkage isnt, but the way the striker leg and sear face mate up, the two materials being MIM castings, the small camming action, etc. He said there has to be something wrong with the gun if this is happening to individuals with this amount of training, this amount of skill.. But just the same- a gun going off from momentum? (It wasnt my gun). The one officer in the ABC story had it wrapped in a rag in his gym bag? They passed every state and national drop test requirement out there. The VIP screening with the meet and greet was like $600. Good thing you werent serious, thatd be terr..uh.oops. The cost of settlements will be passed on to us. If you can make the trigger move backwards, all bets are off. While this incident occurred months ago, this erroneous media report is driven by multiple sources, including our competitors, and coincides with the imminent release of other Canadian military and law enforcement tenders, indicating the timing of its release is an attempt to improperly influence the procurements, the statement said. In 2020, the agent, who is a former marine, was doing his routine training with the P320. The Milwaukee Police Department reports "multiple unexplained accidental discharges" of the Sig Sauer P320 9mm, a gun all officers are required to carry, making for more than 1,600 firearms. A holstered base P320 allegedly had a mysterious accidental discharge without pulling the trigger. Seems kind of like a Sig apologist article. Sig P320 discharge while holstered. (The defect couldnt be duplicated after the crash.). Thats why the US Marines have Sigs. He wanted TTAG to convey that hes pro-Second Amendment. Wow new finger grooves, crazy innovation. It was one of the first ones and was sent back as a voluntary upgrade. These lawsuits ARE about SIG making defective weapons. And I suspect at end of day this recent P320 one will be identified as a negligent discharge or from weapons from 2017 where owners failed to . There are several stories about her in the news for various no reasons, she must be throwing them out by a dozen. Mechanical engagement of sear to striker not deep enough (wanted lighter, smoother trigger pull without giving it any hand workmanship required with the deep notch much safer classic systems made since 1900) Result another big fail. Were not saying that the suits against GLOCK are any more (or less) substantiated than those against SIG. The Glocks lack of a manual safety has caused untold thousands of needless cripplings and death. Maybe its a technical issue, maybe its a training issue. But SIG Sauer said it has rectified the issue with upgrades, including one made for the U.S. military which court documents, filed as part of one of the lawsuits, show resulted in substantial changes to the weapons internal design. Asking for a friend. Right up front, the use of an ill-fitting/improper-for-the-gun holster instantly negates any idea of an unintended discharge being the fault of the design. Slowly people are realizing they arent the only ones having issues. I mean hey, yelling about firearms preferences online is no more productive than discussing nerdy Star Trek stuff, is it? One of the officers a few years ago was carrying his P320 in a P226 holster that he took a Dremel to make the P320 fit. His haste to avoid the embarrassment of his gun being seen on the floor turned the incident from a wardrobe malfunction (accidental exposure of a concealed weapon, probably just a reprimand from the OPR) into a negligent discharge (the gun being fired led to him personally getting fired!). Unless they have to fire their weapon in an on-duty incident most officers only fire their weapons just before and/or at qualifications, which depending on the department are annual or semi-annual. Post again when you buy a real gun that you can defend yourself with. As for the Serpa holster, this is a bunch of internet echo chamber BS that originated with Obama-era federal agencies putting a bad light on a good product in order to sway public opinion and thus damage the manufacturers bottom line. Going on Sigs reputation I bought a P320. My gun just went off! The military is already shopping for a new sidearm. To be sure, Ive informally asked every other owner of a Serpa holster when I meet them, whether they have ever had an ND because of the holster. Dont quote the four rules of safety in your article when all the hotness in the gun world is appendix carry pointing something at an extremity and the photos you use showing front slide serrationsputting your hands fingers near the business end of the barrel, because press checks from the front is the way all the cool operator guys do it. SIG is choosing to litigate their problems away. Aint been nothing but problems since the military dropped the 1911, what was it 85 year of trusted service? (a) A person commits an offense if the person recklessly discharges a firearm inside the corporate limits of a municipality having a population of 100,000 or more. Fact is most SF carry what they want and the Marine Recon I know very well who has friends in that community told me many in the Navy NSW program still carry the Mk 25, they don want a striker fired pistol that can hydrolock in water. But breaking news here, skippy. Jeff Bagnell, a lawyer in Westport, Conn., who has litigated 10 cases, mostly by commercial gun owners, related to SIG P320 misfires across several U.S. states, took note of the accident involving the Canadian special forces soldier. The use of a modified [SIG] P226 holster created an unsafe condition by allowing a foreign object to enter the holster, causing the unintended discharge.. They mandate more discharges, with more property damage, more injuries, and more deaths. Trying to categorically say Brand X is better than Brand Y! The new Kirk does suck. . Im not even sure I would do that with my 92 or something else that can be both decocked and locked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ZZ6pynGLM Too much MIM in that crap SIG, the old ones were great. All those customers who paid $1600 now had a limited function paper weight. Likewise, having a finger in the trigger-guard, or a clothing draw-string, or a retention strap, or some other object, when holstering the gun exonerates the maker, as the gun is firing with a trigger press of sufficient energy and stroke as designed. Ron Cohen ruined Kimber and now hes doing the same to SIG. Not only is it now the designated sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, there are over a million of them in civilian hands. All polymer guns are cheap, cheap, cheap to make, thats why I threw the Taurus name into the mix. In a world of "innovative" guns, this truly is an innovated design and a step in the right direction for the future of pistols. But it also has much worse quality control on the parts in my experience owning and working on both. Hilton's $15 million lawsuit said, "there have been 54 reported uncommanded discharges of the P320," meaning the gun went off by itself, over the last five years in 22 states and Washington, D.C. All chasing that pot of gold at the end of litigation.. Not that big of a stretch when considering the lawyers beating the bushs for clients to add to the lawsuits, and the fact many of them will lose their jobs if its proven to NOT be the gun, but instead negligence on their part. Withe the P320 Sigs contract was $169.5 million, $103 million cheaper then Glock. Thinking its okay to wrap a loaded gun in a towel and toss it into a gym bag is what we get when departments refuse to hire candidates who score too high on IQ tests. A fine of up to $10,000. BTW it was HK that made the first polymer gun, Glock actually stole the idea for the G17 from them. Sometimes you dont get what you pay for but now SIG has bragging rights. The SIG will be the shortest military contract for guns in history. That could happen easily. 3) If the sear fails, there is the drop safety in the way of the striker. Many gun makers have had issues with drop firing, unintended discharge, bad safeties This is a resource I compiled of semi-auto pistols that have been recalled or Upgraded for Safety related problems like Drop Firing, Safeties that Malfunction, Risk of Accidental Discharge, etc. three changes to the original design. , 54 people all shooting themselves. Sig P320 is just one of many pistols with Safety related. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. Yes, conspiracy to defraud is a thing when ones @ss is on the line. I continue to bet my life on them. It has been flawless so far. The fact is that the plaintiffs will get paid regardless of who did what. Circumstances that explained those un-commanded discharges.. The claimed mode of failure was that the tab on the drop safety that interferes with the striker movement had been sheered off and stopped being a drop safety. Its a novelty, its got issues! I could care but that came at the expense of reliability and safety. This leads me to conclude that the problem is not the gear but the moron using it. Just 3 days ago, a Florida Corrections recruit killed herself by a negligent discharge during firearms training. So does any of this mean theres something wrong with the P320? The problems associate with those pistols (and the P365) have long since been ironed out. No you haters are not smarter than the US military, who tested the P320 far more than your favorite YouTuber ever did. Remember the highly trained FBI officer whose gun went off in a nightclub? We will respect the ongoing investigation and will not offer further comment at this time, Bineau said. Keep the phrase legal momentum in mind. Theres also an un-named Texas gun shop manager who says a P320 fired as he cleared the weapon, blowing off one of his fingers. Because its flat out bull**it. Back in 2017, SIG instituted a voluntary upgrade program to replace the original production triggers with new enhanced triggers designed to fix the issue that we and others observed when the pistols were dropped onto hard surfaces. I have never had to have one serviced or replaced. And they think hey have an actual legit lawsuit on their hands? That is the point of most of the video at the end of the article. LOL! Such being the case, there very well may BE in inherent design flaw in the gun; We shouldnt just cast the thought aside as being beyond consideration and insist on blaming the problem on operator error.. Give me a break. It was at that point that I knew the gun had a design flaw. Police officers (maybe) do an annual qualification and thats it. I have almost a hatred for Glocks but the one thing that they are is reliable. Effectively: you must be this dumb to get this job. Attorney Bagnell held up the law enforcement officers he represents as examples of people who are highly trained in carrying and using firearms. As a striker-fired pistol, the P320 is "under constant pressure to fire," Bagnell said. NEWINGTON - A Hillsboro man is suing Newington gunmaker Sig Sauer alleging his Sig P320 pistol fired, without him pulling the trigger, causing a bullet to be discharged into his thigh. Mine is very accurate. Watching all these Glock fan boys drool over these lawsuits in their tribal brand-lust is like watching the talking heads on CNN announcing Trump lost the 2020 election. The heads up testing was immediately finished the Sig was the winner. These officers are not gunfighters. If it were the guns, there would be thousands of cases involving citizensbut there arent. Was it his fault? Sig Sauer P320 (Christine Peterson/TNS) February 22, 2021 Ryan Morgan Gunmaker Sig Sauer is facing a new lawsuit from a U.S. federal agent who claims his holstered P320 pistol discharged without him pulling the trigger and struck him in his upper right hip. They are plaintiffs versions of what they say happened. If this were a car, a phone, a refrigerator, it would have been recalled long ago. The trigger bar has to push up on it, for it to release. Yes, a lot of police officers only shoot when they have to for qual. selling the 365 with strikers breaking? I am also very much a DS9 fan, best series overall. By hoping Sig gets taken down for the P320, theyre actually setting up their own pet brand to be the next on the chopping block. Miraculously, no one was hit by the bullet, which ricocheted around inside the vehicle. For the moron Neanderthals of the Far Right who will scream its the operators fault and we do not give a shit about marketing more safer designed weapons, if such idiotic polices were followed for other consumer goods today we would not have safety glass, anti-lock breaks, back up safeties, child proof medicine caps and chemical bottles, back up cameras, kick back muzzles on chain saws and the list goes on and on. . Anyway around here they do. L. LRRifleman . And as far as Special Forces go, SF going to Glock has been documented as a bean counters solution to save money. If it were a lowered tier manufacturer like a Taurus having allegations made against them, people would run with it without thinking twice. They've also been adopted as duty guns by law enforcement agencies across the country. It was expensive. So your fanboy perjorative falls not only flat but false. In 1982 the G17 hit the market and in 1983 they gave 30,000 pistols to the Austrian military at cost. Each incident gives them more blood for their macabre dance, and another tic-mark for their context-free gun violence tally. The second version emphasized the upgrade to fix the drop safety issue and notes that Harrison believes that problem has been fixed. This guy had been working at the LGS for over a decade and never had an AD or ND, he was the strictest when it came to safety. Third, Glock has had problems, too. There were a lot of changes. In my opinion, the only reason SIG would have done that is if they knew there was a safety problem with the original gun, otherwise they would not have done it., Scott says Harrison reviewed the claims in Officer Hiltons lawsuit and said, its unclear to (Harrison) what could now be causing misfires in the upgraded guns., Scott then asked Harrison if he believes the P320 should be removed from the marketplace. Not sure why it wont let me reply to you, but Ill reply to myself in the hope youll get it. With the redesign, you would have to implement a LOT of force to move the trigger backwards. Face it, you paid far too much for a plastic gun. As they should. No Warp core, just a quantum singularity, The engine was basically a dorm fridge. Still waiting. There was no holster involved. how do I get one for my P320? I used to laugh at his bragging about how skilled he was with a weapon.. Its not credible to claim that people with this amount of training, this amount of skill are all shooting themselves.. The weapon was out of battery when it fired.. I also have a manual safety. The truth is the absolute WORST semi-autos that Sig, H&K, Walther, Beretta or Glock makes today are more reliable than the best semi-autos made 40 years ago, by far. Depending on who you talk to you will get many different answers. Or you would have to have enough slide play for the slide movement to physically disengage the sear and striker leg mating surfaces. Posts: 21156 | Registered: November 05, 2003. Second, pardon us if were more than a little skeptical that the P320 in question or any other handgun fired when it was out of battery. Folks disagree on brands. 2. My trust for Sig stopped after they produced the beloved Sig556xi Russian. It takes time for any new platform to work the kinks out. "It has a clear capacity to fire without the trigger being pulled under certain conditions," said Hilton's lawyer, Jeffrey Bagnell. Personally they should have gone with the Glock, its not for me but is a proven gun. The P320s and P365s were junk, plain and simple. JTF-2 is the only unit in. While we dont have the actual numbers of similar lawsuits filed against other gun makers actually no one individual or organization seems to keep track of these things and gun makers dont want to talk about it it seems highly likely that every major firearm manufacturer gets its share of a regular flow of lawsuits filed by both civilians and LEOs who claim SHAZAM! Picard if Im limited to NCC-1701. LOL! Note that Harrisons comment about these claims possibly being the result of legal momentum were edited out of the longer Nightline version of the report. Search Texas Statutes. Really? To give you an example of early self-propelled lawn mowers if you lost your grip on the handles the mower would not shut off and it would take off on its own right down the street all by itself. They suck and Im awesome!, 2. Upgrades are for things that didnt work right in the first place. The incident with the P320 - a contender for a major Canadian Armed Forces procurement of thousands of pistols and holsters that has a Aug. 3 deadline for industry proposals - occurred at JTF-2's Dwyer Hill training range just west of Ottawa. He likens it to a bow-and-arrow, pulled taut. Pity that some of the most common reactions fall into two over simplistic categories: 1. So I give a ton of credit to Shatner for reading the reality of what it was and in essence, saving it. DND/CAF is not in a position at this stage in its investigation to offer insight into the potential causes because our investigation scope is broader than the technical aspect pertaining to the unintended discharge of the pistol.. In this version, Bridge City Officer Brittany Hilton tells her story of what she says happened when her P320 discharged as she was carrying it in her purse in what appears to be a SERPA holster (which has had its own problems, but thats another story). The new Tauruses have a good rep, far better then the P320 or P365. If the military was going to go cheap then they should have thrown Taurus into the mix. And yes, if I pulled some of those stunts, Id have my membership revoked. LEO handguns get into struggles, they get laid and rolled on, they get smacked into vehicles/doorways, they get dropped, they get drawn and holstered way more often than their civilian counterparts. (unless theyre SWAT or something). Let us look at the history of other consumer products. I dont own a P320. Finger on the trigger and muzzle discipline are sometimes unheralded. If it was so bad, why did the US Marines, who had the Glock, drop it in favor of the carry sized P320, the M18? Who function tests their firearm 1) with a round in the chamber, and 2) when its pointed at an extremity? Sig Sauer P220 Super Match. Infact you have to pay shipping cost to get that fixed even though its their screw up. Not only is it now the designated sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, there are over a million of them in civilian hands. There used to be a problem, which is why Sig fixed it. This reminds me of when Gretchen Carlson sued Fox News for sexual harassment and she got 20 million dollars. Its also interesting that theres apparently no corresponding flood of civilian lawsuits against SIG with similar claims of guns going off, even though the public owns far more P320s than do law enforcement agencies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0LUbLu6TqA, Simply put, the P320 is not safe and the lawsuits arent frivolous. Both companies, instead, took to pro-gun industry forums to offer a rebuttal, giving no opportunity to answer questions. The clearest memory I have about the many people experiencing post-upgrade discharges is a cop who set his P320 on a table, and several seconds after letting go, IT DISCHARGED ON ITS OWN! Bagnell is representing a number of the police officers who have filed suits against SIG for un-commanded discharges, but wouldnt disclose the exact number. Companies stay silent A shame but then no one was hurt. I own Serpa holsters in multiple configurations (1911, Beretta 96, H&K, Springfield, etc) for most of the time theyve been around and I NEVER had an ND. The sheriff's office said its investigation found no mechanical problems with its deputy's gun. I guess none got her the attention she wanted and a national coverage so she went in for the bang. ! while being accompanied by some form of obvious stupidity like putting an unholstered gun in a gym bag with other stuff. This is this same company that couldnt build their own freaking rifles after multiple attempts (Sig SG550 series) when that rifle had been made in Switzerland for years without issue. CBC News reached out to Sig Sauer and its Canadian distributor, M.D. What a wonderful parody of a MAC cultist! The guide rod is cheap and breaks, it has rotten front sights! converted to the Glock denomination, but are now screaming that the P320 is Too new, not worked out! Even if it was an issue with the sear interface, there is still a firing pin safety that will not move unless the trigger is held firmly to the rear. And many departments across the country have had to lower their standards for passing qualifications just to be able to hire on and keep officers. So, unlike the Serpa holster debate, Im a believer that there is more going on than meets the eye with the P320 and is exactly why I refrained from buying one, why I still wont own one, and why I steer people away from it. If these same folks were around in the 80s and got their way, no one today would know what a Glock was.

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